Kiesha's story

When we met Kiesha she was about a year old and a trembling wreck, she was living in a postage stamp sized filthy back yard, it was clear by the size of her teats she had a litter recently.
We should have walked away but you know how it is, you cant.

The owners did not have a collar, lead, toys, bed or anything that was hers and her favourite food was apparently 'tatties' (potatoes) She'd never been outside her yard, never been in a house, never seen a vet and she was scared of us.

Me and Andy both looked at each other wondering how the hell we were going to get her in the car, the woman told me Kiesha had a sister that she'd got rid of that morning, i asked her for something i could fashion a lead out of, i wanted out of there and she was coming with me.

Surprisingly we got her into the car quite easily, maybe no matter how scared she was of us she sensed it'd be worth the risk. She kept her back to me all the way home, getting out of the car she was so confused and scared, it was heartbreaking, we got her in the house and she headed right to the back door curled up in a tight ball with the most worried expression on her face ive ever seen.

We decided the best thing to do was to ignore her, no eye contact, no touching and just go about our daily business as if she was not there in the hope she'd realise she was safe and nobody was going to hurt her. Everytime we passed we'd drop chicken and tasty treats. No one was allowed to visit. The smell from her was disgusting, i was hoping she'd trust us pretty damned quick so i could shower her before she stunk the entire house out.

Naturally she'd never been in a house before so house training was a long process, she would go out to the garden but gave herself an invisible boundary of a few feet that no matter how much you coaxed she'd go no further, she was also scared of the dark.

After a few days i just couldent stand the smell any longer and we showered her, i got a shock, i thought she was a brown coloured dog with white patches, there's not a bit of brown in her, it was all filth. We made an appointment at the vet, another scary experience, on the whole she was pretty good getting her shots and although underweight there seemed no cause for concern.

She stayed at the back door and no amount of dropping a chicken trail from the kitchen to living room would coax her away from the security of her bed at the door to join us.
One night i thought enough is enough and marched into the kitchen, picked up her bed and dragged it through to the living room, i went back in and dragged her through, sat down, ignored her and watched the telly.
After about an hour i wondered if i'd done the right thing doing that and got up to take her bed back to the kitchen, she was not lying on it anyway, as i went to move it she jumped right on it as much as to say, i like it here
That was the end of being at the back door and the beginning of her love affair with the heat from the fire.

Next i'll tell you about going outside and meeting other dogs.

Thanks Liz for that, goes to show how far a dog can recover even from the most horrendous of situations.....

I would say (unless its all they gave her) that the reason the old owners thought her favourite food was potatoes is possibly because she may have eaten just that and avoided any meat to lower her rank as far as she could (and you cant get much lower than potatoes) in an attempt to stop any further abuse.....

The key was that you just ignored her and let her get used to her new environment on her own, if you were the dog lover type I normally see and just showered her with affection then those types would most likely have had a very short relationship with her....

My feeling is why the dropping of food trails didnt work is that the opposite may work better, in this instance it would probably be wrong as she was so underweight....but without that and a similar dog I would be inclined to ignore the dog as you did and not eat or drink anything myself either, the theory being that the dog will realise that neither of us can survive without the other....dogs are tuned in to how we feel and how healthy our bodies are, so they will realise that I am getting weaker without food and water as they are, whereas if I continued eating and drinking then they know I am strong and they may view themselves as a weakness and in the wild that can mean they are banished from the pack or killed....

This process may take a few hours or a day or two, but if the dog came and licked you that would be a sign of lets work together and survive and the dog realising that they can't survive without you.....

I accept this is a very difficult thing to do in a domestic situation and the withdrawal of food and water most frowned upon by a lot of people....

Anyway, these are just my observations, you have done a great job with her and I know you still respect she is nervous type and allow her not to be forced upon new people that visit your house.

From seeing videos of your dogs in the past I would say she helps to keep the pack balanced as she to me plays the omega role and I think your boy is a beta rank and your younger girl an alpha or alpha in waiting....so they have all the makings of a successful pack along with your guidance / natural dog skills and they have clear defined roles within the pack.....thats my belief why they get on so well.......

Thanks James, i hope some of my stories will help somebody at some point in a similar situation, Kiesha has been with me for 3 years now and she's still a work in progress. As you know there's no magic quick fix solution to some behaviours and training is an ongoing thing, she's come so far from where we started, the upcoming house move is going to be hardest on her.

I'll carry on with her story and jump in where you can, ive got a lot of things right in her rehabilitation and likely just as many wrong, please point those out to people as well, as you know offence is not something i suffer from when it comes to what is best for my dogs.

I wonder if she needs any more help, she may well be happy with the job she is doing and in my view she is doing it very well, just that you will have to put up with one or two downsides to living with an omega.....

To me, she will now teach you.

We all get things wrong with dogs, we are not their natural teachers so we are bound to make mistakes....

I hope I haven't in any way dis-credited what a marvellous job you have done with her, most people would have failed or destroyed her emotionally using dominance.

Continued:

Kiesha it seems was somewhat Agoraphobic (fear of outside) given that she also had a fear of collars and leads it was not going to be easy getting her out and about

Decided it was best to stick to the garden at first seeing as she had decided on a small square as her saftey zone i had to get her outwith that, tried throwing various toys slightly outwith the zone, she just looked at me like i was mad, tried standing at the other end of the garden and calling on her, looked at me and ran inside. No interest in treats as i mentioned above, Kiesha is not a food or toy orientated dog to this day.
Now the thing i discovered with Kiesha is, you have to almost force her to do something which sounds like the completely wrong thing to do with a nervous dog and it probably is for most but after weeks of trying gentle tactics we were getting nowhere and i know her and would never hurt her.
So i put her on a collar and lead and walked her round the garden, talking gently to her and trying to convince her we were completely fine and nothing was going to happen, eventually she quite liked the garden. She did not like the lead so i left that alone for a bit while she got comfortable in her new big space. It soon became obvious Kiesha liked digging and making lunar landscapes for her Mum. Hmmm Dad was not going to be happy having to do slabbing over the next few weekends

We'd had Kiesha a couple of months now and i really felt she needed to experience the big world outside, i knew she wouldent like it at first but she was ok in the garden, her confidence had grown, she trusted us and most importantly the time had come.

To be continued

Admin wrote:I wonder if she needs any more help, she may well be happy with the job she is doing and in my view she is doing it very well, just that you will have to put up with one or two downsides to living with an omega.....

To me, she will now teach you.

We all get things wrong with dogs, we are not their natural teachers so we are bound to make mistakes....

I hope I haven't in any way dis-credited what a marvellous job you have done with her, most people would have failed or destroyed her emotionally using dominance.

Oh please do keep comments coming James, as i said ive done things right, ive done things wrong, its about helping Kiesha, not my ego.
Bear in mind this story started 3 years ago, these first few posts are the very beginning, its going to be a long thread before i get close to how she is now

Will do Liz,

Its very interesting indeed, so make it as long as you like...

It will help show people how long a road nervous types are in being able to help, but what rewards there are in helping a dog recover and that all is possible with time and patience.

liz wrote:Continued:

Kiesha it seems was somewhat Agoraphobic (fear of outside) given that she also had a fear of collars and leads it was not going to be easy getting her out and about

Decided it was best to stick to the garden at first seeing as she had decided on a small square as her saftey zone i had to get her outwith that, tried throwing various toys slightly outwith the zone, she just looked at me like i was mad, tried standing at the other end of the garden and calling on her, looked at me and ran inside. No interest in treats as i mentioned above, Kiesha is not a food or toy orientated dog to this day.
Now the thing i discovered with Kiesha is, you have to almost force her to do something which sounds like the completely wrong thing to do with a nervous dog and it probably is for most but after weeks of trying gentle tactics we were getting nowhere and i know her and would never hurt her.
So i put her on a collar and lead and walked her round the garden, talking gently to her and trying to convince her we were completely fine and nothing was going to happen, eventually she quite liked the garden. She did not like the lead so i left that alone for a bit while she got comfortable in her new big space. It soon became obvious Kiesha liked digging and making lunar landscapes for her Mum. Hmmm Dad was not going to be happy having to do slabbing over the next few weekends

We'd had Kiesha a couple of months now and i really felt she needed to experience the big world outside, i knew she wouldent like it at first but she was ok in the garden, her confidence had grown, she trusted us and most importantly the time had come.

To be continued

To me there has to be something very seriously wrong if a dog does not want to explore the 'outside' world, do you think she was trying to dig a den to use as somewhere to escape?...possibly in these types of circumstance I like to get their nose working by following a scent and get them into tracking mode, I find its easier to move to the next stage as by following a scent makes them go forward and it seems dogs can only focus on one thing at a time so with some speed as well before she knows it your walking along in the 'outside' world.

The Killer Lab that I mention in another thread would not even try and sniff the ground when I walked her, which is very odd in a dog indeed, which made me believe further that her aggression was based on fear.

We hired a dog trainer to help with adjusting her to walk with a collar and lead in the garden, what a waste of money that was, i could tell the trainer was getting frustrated, i was calmer than her.

We tried turning and walking in opposite directions, we tried going out of the house and turning back if she pulled, we tried making her sit, nothing worked and we could not praise her for getting it right as she never got it right. You have to bear in mind most dogs get excited at the thought of going out and thats why people have pulling problems, Kiesha did not want to go out.

I decided the pulling could be tackled later and we'd just concentrate on getting out and about around the house at first, she was all over the place trying to find a bolt hole or get back home. Everytime a person passed or even if a leaf blew in front of her she freaked, hmmmm what to do next.

Like the dragging her bed through to the living room scenario which worked, i believe they call it 'flooding' i went with the same logic and gave her no choice. (I am not saying this works for all dogs or that anybody should try it, its just what i done after exausting everything else)

So i placed a garden chair outside the front of the house, went back in and put her on a lead, took her outside and sat down on the chair, she was freaking out and not happy at all, she tried to get under the chair and almost sent me flying, she pulled and flapped about like she was a nut case but i stayed calm and did not budge. The postie passed and looked at me like i was off my head, when i said please walk on i'm training my dog he seemed convinced that i must be mental.
I sat for half an hour, she did eventually calm down, well she had no choice did she? As soon as she was calm i told her what a good girl she was, lots of tummy tickles and we went back inside.

[quote="Admin[/quote]

To me there has to be something very seriously wrong if a dog does not want to explore the 'outside' world, do you think she was trying to dig a den to use as somewhere to escape?...possibly in these types of circumstance I like to get their nose working by following a scent and get them into tracking mode, I find its easier to move to the next stage as by following a scent makes them go forward and it seems dogs can only focus on one thing at a time so with some speed as well before she knows it your walking along in the 'outside' world.

quote]

Tracking a scent may have been a good thing to do with her back then but i never thought of it at the time.

I don't think she was digging a den to escape too, Kiesha loves to dig even now, its one of her most favourite things to do

I find with problems like this and the fact your breed is closer to the wolf than most that traditional dog trainers are a waste of time.....

They only know how to train a dog, not many actually understand the dog it self, many lose patience when the training doesnt work and they are stuffed as thats all they know, it don't work with alpha or beta ranks and certainly not with a nervous dog.....how can food reward training work with a dog that is too scared to eat?

Most people round here think I am totally mental, so your not on your own there, its part of the territory......

Around this time people were starting to visit the house, i asked everybody to just ignore her and let her come to them in her own time. She did like to have a wee nosey from a distance at who was coming in but other than that pretty much stayed her distance at the top of the stairs. If any visitor needed to use the toilet they had to go upstairs and she would bolt past them frantically running around not knowing where to go. At one point i was asked if she was brain damaged, sometimes i have to admit i did wonder the same thing myself.

As she travelled well in the car we started taking her out to enclosed places where we knew we would not meet any other people or dogs, she grew to enjoy sniffing about and exploring, she was a lot better off lead than on and her recall was perfect, things were definately getting better i thought. We even went to the beach at 6am, she loved the beach but everytime a wave approached her feet she acted like it was a tsunami, quite funny really

I started taking her on walks offlead round here, down past the railway track, through a small woodland and down to the river, i know everybody around here and they are all creatures of habit so i walked her when i knew no one would be out. I asked a neighbour with a balanced dog if she would meet me at the river one day explaining Kiesha's situation to her, she was happy to oblige.
The day before we were due to meet we bumped into someone with a GSD, the GSD came charging over and Kiesha bolted, she went all the way home. I was frantic calling her name and looking for her, when i got home there she was sitting at the door as if it was the most normal thing in the world for her to do.
Kiesha bolted home everytime we met someone or another dog, not once in the first 6 months could i actually say she ever wanted to go out, she just wanted to be at home with me and Andy, i'd never heard of anything like this in my life.
She did start to get better around my grown up kids and came over to them for a fuss, was quite happy to be in the same room as them, if you did not see Kiesha twice a week forget it she wanted nothing to do with you.

We met up with the balanced dog, he's a beutiful Rhodesian ridgeback and to my surprise she loved him, he helped Kiesha a lot but obviously i could not depend on meeting him everyday, we did however meet them a lot back then and although Kiesha never would approach his owner (big wide circle) oh boy did she love running with him.

We'd now had her 8 months or so and i heard of a boy looking for a new home, he was a year old and suffering terribly from separation anxiety as his owners had to work longer hours, i spoke to the owners and it was clear they loved this boy very much, he sounded quite balanced other than the separation thing and we decided to let the dogs meet on neutral ground, if they got on well i'd take him on. The solution seemed perfect, get her a companion. The separation anxiety was not an issue for me as i work from home.

When we met it was love at first sight for the dogs, i got really emotional that day. We came back here for a coffee, Kiesha took him out to the garden and gave him her bone, she lay down beside him just looking at him in awe, she adored him. It was so moving, his owners left while the dogs were in the garden, Kai never did really look for them and blended in here as if he'd always been with us.

He more than anything or anyone helped Kiesha's confidence, she started wanting to go out, she chased his tail, he chased hers, they ran around mad having a ball. When people came to visit Kai always wanted to say hello and Kiesha got braver thinking well if Kai thinks its ok it must be, she'd come up for a pet and run away again but at least she was coming up for a pet.

Here they are back then, having a ball.

[img][/img]

In most if not all cases I would say its better for any dog to have another dog as a natural teacher than any human no matter who it is.

Of course you have to choose the dog to help wisely as you did as there are many unbalanced dogs out there as we know...

I like the softly softly approach and the much patience you showed and commitment, thats the best approach with nervous types in general I would say.....

Great pic!....

Actually Kai came with a whole set of other problems and was not as balanced as i was told he was, but that's another story

The important thing is he helped Kiesha.

The next part of the story will concentrate on where she is at now and if 'this is as good as it gets' for her or if there is more that can be done.

Perhaps they helped each other?

Yes that's true James. Kiesha has never had a problem being left home and now Kai is the same so she's helped him with his separation anxiety.

Ok so let's go with one topic at a time.

1/ Pulling on lead.

Bit of background - I have stopped 7 dogs from pulling in the past so i know all the tricks to do it.

With Kiesha i tried them all, i also tried the gentle leader, halti and several no pull harness devices. I have let her run around for an hour with other dogs to burn off energy and walked her back with two completely calm dogs walking perfectly by my side and still she pulls like a freight train.

I'm at the stage where i'm thinking some dogs are just natural pullers, she does have a lot of husky in her genes but i'm aware a lot of husky's don't pull. I would not be prepared to use yank and crank, a prong or chain on her.

Ironically Kiesha will not run on a bike, scooter or rig as she's terrified of them

This may be an expectation, as I have seen a few videos of you and your dogs and you seem a person with natural dog skills to me more than most.

Possibly it could be that your a female is the problem, its a typical thing I see that a female can set pack rules in the home which the dog follows but they struggle in the 'outside' world as dogs seem to view a female as a provider rather than a protector.....typically a husband that does little with the dog can get them to behave outdoors as they are viewed as a protector by the dog.

I have yet to find a dog that I cannot get to walk by my side on a lead and this includes a very nervous GSD cross that was battered by a man with a lump of wood when it chased a deer into his garden...

See the story here http://dog-behaviour.niceboard.org/nervous-fearful-f5/a-happy-ending-t19.htm

There are a few things I do depending on the dog, in the main...... speed....direction....control I find works the best, as soon as they pull I turn in the opposite direction walk a few paces and turn back to where I wanted to go, where I see some people go wrong is they get the timing wrong, are too soft or too forceful when something in the middle is best here or they dont turn around in the opposite direction (poss coz worried of the dogs reaction) and they go around in a semi circle so the dog hasn't had to turn around as such and is sort of lead slowly in a semi circle instead.....

I find when I do turn around it helps to display a confident body language, head up and chest out and walk calmly as if you own the place / territory.

Yes i definately agree that the dogs pay more attention to my husband outside the home.

I understand what you mean about the timing, however with Kiesha its not as if she's excited to go out, as i said before she'd rather stay home.
She can be laid down completely calm when you put the lead on, walk to the door completely calm and as soon as you open it - lunge.

We have waited at the door with it open for 15 mins, she sits calm as you like, step forward - lunge. Wait half an hour, sits calm as you like, step forward - lunge.

Outside in the garden we have tried walking in figures of eight and all sorts to change direction, ive done it, Andy's done it, the dog trainer we hired done it. Each time we have had our head up, chest out, been calm.

As i said to you before even the dog trainer seemed to be losing her calmness with Kiesha. Are we being too soft? possibly but i don't want to go down the route of the yank and crank methods.

I wish you could meet Kiesha, she's like no other dog ive ever known.

I would not use any harsh methods with this type of dog as you could easily set her back.....

You dont want to be soft either, somewhere in the middle.....

Its one of those things I would have to see, hard from a forum....

Doesn't sound like a good dog trainer to me if losing calmness.

There is one other possibility that Shaun has a theory of.....

Give her a milk and mince diet for a few weeks, the milk is supposed to set her back to the first few weeks of her life when her mum would have taught her things and she is supposed to be more open to change....I have no idea if it will work or not.....

Shaun has observed in the wild that when the female alpha has pups in the den, before she introduces them to the pack she gets them to hunt young prey that are suckling still and hence have a milk content in them.....this according Shaun calms the whole pack down on this diet and is a much safer environment to introduce the pups to the rest of the pack......

As you know James i'd be up for trying anything.

Mince - cooked or raw?
Milk - Cows, Goats, puppy milk formula?

mix together, give separately?

Mixed together.....

Cooked or raw.....I doubt the type of milk makes much difference....for dogs that seem to be intolerant of milk then use that squeezy cheese stuff that comes out of a tube.....

I am always nervous about changing a dogs diet from behaviour and health point of view, so perhaps wean her on it over time say a month before making it her main diet for 2 weeks or so.....

Its only supposed to be a temporary thing and not long term, although you could do it again in the future if you felt you needed to.....

Like I said I have no idea if it will work......

Well let's try it anyway, nothing to lose by giving it a go

It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference....

Your usual patience would be required and I think you may have to look for very subtle changes to start with....