Anyone heard of 'Natural Dog Training' ?

Hi has anyone heard of 'Natural Dog Training' as developed in the USA by Kevin Behan

If so what do you think

Thanks wolfdog,

I haven't had time to read it all yet (but I will), first impressions is I like what he has to say.

In the short clip on the website you can see he is a 'natural' with dogs...

I notice he was brought up on a farm, seems a good start to becoming good with dogs and understanding them more as Shaun Ellis and Cesar Milan were also brought up on proper working farms....a common theme!

He talks about 'energy' and that our dogs are a 'mirror' of our behaviour, so does Cesar Millan, I wonder if thats where Cesar Millan got these ideas from...

I live in the countryside and I find that in general people are much better with dogs than city folk and have a more instinctual connection with them, one local farmer I know who has been training working dogs for 40 years plus can get his springer spaniels to swim across water and retrieve duck eggs and they never break an egg, quite impressive...

I wonder that people who are 'naturals' with dogs can almost use any technique they like and get positive results..

Here is a link to his website I was referring to above. http://naturaldogtraining.com/kevin-behan/

Well, I quite liked the concept to start with but there are one or two articles he wrote that I have reservations about. One was about the reasons for scent marking being about sexual dominance- can't find it now, but was very uncomfortable with the explanation.

I also read his piece about yawning which was interesting; he claims that dogs yawn to calm them selves down rather than as a calming signal- something for further thought there.

All in all further reading of his site is required

Yes, further reading required, also just watched a number of his videos on his site, some of his techniques seem odd to me, need to understand them more first.

These 3 x videos I found very interesting and thought provoking....

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/quantum-canine-eye-contact-episode-part-1/

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/quantum-canine-eye-contact-episode-part-2/

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/quantum-canine-eye-contact-episode-3/

He mentions 'energy' being transmitted from the predator to the prey and back to the predator in a form of vibration....like an electrical vibration....

For example wolves cannot take down a healthy moose if it stands it ground, the wolves will look at the moose and project an 'energy' if the 'energy' coming back is one of strength from a fit healthy moose then the wolves will feel this bouncing back at them and know not to bother, if however any weakness is bounced back, the wolves will 'target' the moose, even then if the moose holds his ground he is likely to be ok, once he runs he may well be doomed.....

What I found interesting was how he believes we make everyday objects a 'target' in a similar way, ie plenty of dogs will 'steal' a remote control. mobile phone, favourite pair of shoes etc..... his theory is that these are items that when we hold them we project an 'energy' that contains a lot of emotions.....we all know that some familys fight over a remote control and plenty of people get obsessed by mobile phones and emotional text messages tapped away on for possibly hours on end......all of this according to his theory makes these types of items a 'target' for the dog, the prize or prey / moose if you like......

He may well be on to something here.....

It made me think of the times I have dealt with a so called aggressive dog or dogs, plenty of times they haven't been aggressive with me, when dealing with them I always try and feel no fear or no malice towards them, going by his theory when they challenge me they would feel this bouncing back and hence the aggression stops, ie a dog just 'testing' me out would know I am not scared of him and mean him no harm, perhaps also that I have a genuine interest in ALL dogs no matter what I see helps and maybe this is bounced back at them as well in the form of 'energy'.......

There are some that believe that ALL animals understand the universal language of 'energy' and that we used to as well, until we developed emotional intelligence and we lost that skill, but animals can still read us by the 'energy' we project.

Even if it is true not many humans would ever accept it as such.....as we only tend to believe what we can see or proved beyond doubt....

Its an interesting post James.

The first part is explained by some ethologists quite clearly in terms of interrupted prey drive. This is where the predator needs a sequence of events to be triggered at each stage to be able to be able to hunt: eye, stalk, chase, grab bite, kill. This is part of the brain's hard wiring and if any part of the procedure is interrupted then the predator cannot continue with the hunt. ie the moose stops running then the wolf cannot bite (bring down the running moose).

Of course what is also being discussed here is if there is another connection or relationship between predator and prey and many people believe there is. Though this exchange of energy explanation is new to me.

As for your second point about dealing with aggressive dogs etc. animals can 'see' in a way that we usually fail to. It seems to me that being calm or 'neutral' when dealing with them is key. I think this is why people who are 'dominant' or who project dominance, aggression or other strong emotion and cannot learn to control this always fail in dealing with animals effectively.

Of course it is hard to prove anything that is essentially 'emotional' beyond any doubt. However if we think and observe...

Thank you Wolfdog and James for taking the time to critically read my site and entertain these ideas. I haven't figured out the forum yet so I'll just place some quotes in brackets and then respond below these.

<<<Well, I quite liked the concept to start with but there are one or two articles he wrote that I have reservations about. One was about the reasons for scent marking being about sexual dominance>>>

What I’m trying to say is that a dog marks a scent post because the form of something that stands upright triggers the physical memory of its earliest litter experiences when its mother rolled it over, exposing its genitals, and by licking the pup induced it to eliminate and then she cleaned it. The puppy couldn’t eliminate without this tactile stimulation which was both stressful to the puppy because it was being knocked off balance by the mother, but also pleasurable because of the sensual nature of the affected body region. So in effect the dog is exposing its genitals to a fire hydrant due to its earliest and most powerful imprint, its mother literally lifted its leg for access. And there’s intensity behind the impulse because of the ever present urge to relieve stress. This behavior will be greatly reinforced by the fact that it’s likely to find the scent of another dog on said hydrant, but the dog doesn’t actually require a tangible reinforcement because the relief of stress is a self-reinforcing motive in and of itself. So it is sexual to be sure, but it has nothing to do in my view with dominance or even delineating territory, and hopefully I have made my point clearer.

<<<The first part is explained by some ethologists quite clearly in terms of interrupted prey drive. This is where the predator needs a sequence of events to be triggered at each stage to be able to be able to hunt: eye, stalk, chase, grab bite, kill. This is part of the brain's hard wiring and if any part of the procedure is interrupted then the predator cannot continue with the hunt. ie the moose stops running then the wolf cannot bite (bring down the running moose)>>>.

I don’t interpret such an event from the notion of a hard-wiring in fact; I believe hunting as a group is almost wholly plastic (this is why dogs orient around an object that appears to be of common interest to its group, I call this a "group trigger" and so paradoxically dogs can apply ancient instincts in an infinitely malleable way and completely decoupled from the hard wired sequence they normally must fire of in.) other than that it must conform to energetic laws. So emotion works according to a principle of conductivity. The wolf feels attracted to the moose, but the internal conductivity (disease, youth or an infirmity) of the moose determines if the wolf can express such an urge to its culmination. Now if the wolves can sync up with each other in terms of this force of desire, they can thereby bring a syncopated and collectivized force of pressure to bear on the moose, and if this then makes the moose conductive, then the full blown prey-making behaviors continue. But note how the wolves can stop and restart without any loss of appetite, unlike a cat for example that has to reboot the entire sequence because interruptions are too shocking to it. So yes, the chain of events can be interrupted, but unlike other animals, wolves don’t necessarily feel a loss of emotional momentum when they are interrupted. They can persist, hold onto the feeling of attraction and maintain a steady state degree of pressure on their quarry and again this is unique to the way wolves hunt and I believe this capacity is the genesis of everything about the domesticated dog. In regards to Natural Dog Training, my aim is to mimic this capacity so that I can interrupt a dog but without it experiencing any loss of emotional momentum. All the force that was initially invested in a certain direction ends up being re-channeled in a new direction of my choosing. And it doesn’t matter to the dog that it just switched focal points since he can still feel the same degree of movement (if not more) in this new way. This idea of conductivity is the distinction between prey instinct (hard wiring) and prey drive (syncopated and flexible group action around a group trigger). The latter approach is able to take more complex objects of resistance and render them conductive.

Many thanks Kevin, a very interesting post.....

I am going to take some time to absorb and think more about what you say here....and reply more later....

One thing that has sprung to mind is the ability you talk about of 're-channeling'...in a new direction of your choosing, thats a concept I like as it is in my view a good way of controlling the environment rather than the dog and I think the less dominance we can use the better....

I would like to know your thoughts on this taking into account what you mention in you post above....

If I come across a dog that is obsessed about a toy or object or steals items such as a remote control what I do is this....I never try and take the object from the dog, I will put my hand on the object while the dog has it in his mouth, I dont back away if the dog growls, I remain calm but with an assertive attitude, I find after a short while the dog will let go of the object, I still dont take the object at this stage....again I find that after a short while the dog will take a step or two backwards.....once they have done this I will then take the object as I see this as them telling me that by backing away they have given up 'ownership' of the object to me....

I find this works long term but may need to be reinforced every now and again if the dog decides to 'test' you over the 'ownership' of the item....

I find where people go wrong is taking the item too early or getting into a tug of war over an item and this just makes the dog even more likely to want the item more....

Hi Kevin,

I hope you don't mind my bringing your web-site to a discussion on this forum but I did find it a refreshing change from other dog training philosophies.

I get your point about scent marking but I am not sure about it. From my own personal experience I see very different behaviour from my wolfdogs than I see from my ordinary 'dog'. I find your theory that it derives from the mothers stimulation interesting but find its practical use (both urinating and defecating) are used to define territory or if not this at least to make a point with the fox who similarly marks in their absence. The wolf dogs will usually mark at the intersections of runs so that their statement can be picked up by visitors no matter which route they take. In contrast I would say that my dog does not understand this practice at all well and that his motivations and actions seem entirely different; as if the domestication process has removed or at very least altered this response.

As for my comments on 'interrupted prey drive'. I take on board your comments, which i found very interesting -especially the difference between cats and dogs! I can certainly appreciate that group hunting is wholly plastic and this translates from the wolf very well into its descendants either wild (like the African hunting dog) or the Domestic dog.

I look forward to exploring your ideas more thoroughly.

Hi Kevin,

To include a 'quote' in a reply to a post click on the blue coloured 'quote' button in the post which is to the right of the 'multi-quote' button.....if you want to include 'multiple quotes' then click the white 'multi quote' button for the posts you want to include and then click the blue 'reply' button at the top left of the thread (you may have to scroll up).......

Hope that helps.....

[quote="wolfdog"]
"From my own personal experience I see very different behaviour from my wolfdogs than I see from my ordinary 'dog'. I find your theory that it derives from the mothers stimulation interesting but find its practical use (both urinating and defecating) are used to define territory or if not this at least to make a point with the fox who similarly marks in their absence. The wolf dogs will usually mark at the intersections of runs so that their statement can be picked up by visitors no matter which route they take. In contrast I would say that my dog does not understand this practice at all well and that his motivations and actions seem entirely different; as if the domestication process has removed or at very least altered this response".

I agree that scent marking has the practical effect of defining territory so that another canine feels unsure about entering that designated zone, but I'm attempting to probe why a dog or wolf does it, what specifically is going on within the dog or wolf and then see if this sheds any light on such matters as territoriality, dominance, submission and so on. So I believe that if we flip it around we can get a clearer view. The potentially trespassing dog feels less safe about going into this new zone, which really means that the dog that marks at the edge of that zone is needing to feel safe in order to remain where it is. When it gets to the edge of familiar territory, it begins to feel unsure and physical memory brings up experiences of resistance that are attached to that degree of conflict, and the dog redresses its unsureness by expressing urine thereby making it feel relieved. It feels the presence of another dog on the horizon when it reaches the edge of its safety zone. Since emotion piggybacks (in my view) on basic physical processes, it feels emotionally relieved as well by the release of physical energy, i.e. the flow of urine and the reduction of pressure in its bladder. And by smelling its own urine, it reminds itself of terra-firma at these critical juncture points. (Likewise in protection training if the helper stresses a dog too much, it will need to relieve itself. Trainers then interpret this as the dog claiming its territory and then having a reason to defend it, but I again see this in the inverse way. The dog feels better after dumping some energy and can now reboot on safer ground. This is also why some dogs wait until they're safe in the car or a fenced yard to bark at strangers.) I think in general that the domestic dog is less unsure about moving across the land, (given that neotony has rendered it more sensual so it can convert resistance triggered by the unfamiliar more readily into Drive, in other words, it can use physical memory to go by an old feeling of flow that was imprinted into its body/mind rather than by an instinct or the memory of a bad experience) although we all have observed that the more nervous and tightly wound dogs are constantly marking as they make their way on streets and over the land. It's almost like the Hansel/Gretel thing of leaving bread crumbs to find the way back, to reassure itself it's still on safe ground. The domestic dog has a much smaller brain than the wolf because of this sensual/neotony connection which allows it to apprehend a group trigger (where the wolf would be inclined to go by its more finely tuned niche oriented instincts) so the domestic dog's mind is arranged around the adaptable kernel at the core of the canine code and doesn't need all the instinctual software and hardware, which is actually an encumbrance when dealing with a high rate of change. For this reason the domestic dog isn't so good at finely marking specific boundaries (again the more unsure dogs are far more precise going right to the edge of the property as if they've consulted a plot plan) and other things like bringing food to the pups (although this still exists but serves a different function).
So I don't interpret scent marking as territoriality per se, even though it does kind of serve that purpose, but rather as part of emotion's wholesale function of polarizing organisms to specific sites in order to create action potentials, of spacing them apart so that 1) emotion can elaborate within a containment system into a more complex expression, like culturing bacterium in a petrie dish, as well as 2) creating tension zones to induce new energy into the system by way of social conflict.
Again, thanks for the opportunity to express these ideas.

Another thing you mention on your website is that wolves react mainly to instinct and dogs react mainly to 'feelings' and its these feelings that has made a good partnership with domestic dogs and humans as they are one of the few animals on the planet 'in tune' with our feelings.

This may also explain why people can't domesticate a wolf (plenty have tried) and that wolfdogs are not for the average dog owner, they are probably a 'half way' house between the wolf and the domestic dog (member wolfdog will have a better view on that than me).

I do believe though that domestic dogs do retain some instincts from the wolf and not just 'feelings' albeit with some of these instincts removed by the selective breeding process and that dogs do not have natural teachers as a wolf would have by being taught by the pack, most dogs get 8 weeks with their mum and spend the rest of their lives with human teachers....

I also think the amount of wolf instinct left varies from breed to breed, a German Shepherd for example having more wolf traits than say a Labrador, it is widely accepted that wolf blood was added to the German Shepherd breed around the time just after the 2nd world war, apparently it was thought the breed was getting too aggressive and so wolf blood was added....also some instincts may have been 'confused' by selective breeding, some things dogs do they may not know why they are doing it, for example my dog will howl when he hears high frequencies such as a female opera singer on TV, a high frequency howl from a wolf is used to locate the pack, I don't know if he knows why he is howling.

Another factor I would say is the breed instincts of the dog to be taken into account, especially a dog that comes from a long line of actual working dogs, for example a border collie that comes from a long blood breed line that have all been used for work.....

I must say though that 'feelings' play a large part as you say, quite often when helping someone with their dog its the human that has to change and not the dog, they have to change their 'feelings' in order to see an improvement in the dogs perceived behaviour...for example say the husband is always angry or frustrated with the dog, once you remove him from the ambient area from the dog then the dog is fine.....if I can convince the husband that its him causing the problem and not the dog they often see a big improvement if they 'genuinely' use calmness around the dog instead....

James, I think a lot of these wolf instincts that remain in the dog have been chopped and changed by domestication. Selective breeding and the creation of specialist breeds (be they terriers for ratting or livestock guarding dogs) has had the effect of altering these behaviours to different extents depending on breed but probably also creating different side effects as well. I have seen nothing to me that suggests the German Shepherd has such recent wolf heritage, though the Czechoslovakian wolf-dog has a very well recorded pedigree and you can look here for some evidence of what wolf heritage can give you but to qualify that of course there has been some intense selection to produce a working dog. I will say that perhaps there is an intensity in this animal which puts makes it imperative to re-direct some of that energy!

On the subject of emotion, I would say by my observations that wolves are intensely emotional (which is why they cannot be made into pets) this emotion is incredibly powerful and not so evident nor desirable in dogs. It takes relatively little for this emotional energy to be redirected from excitement at meeting an old friend to an argument. Wolf language is so instinctive that they can be understood (almost read like a book) quickly by other wolves. Dogs only have part of this vocabulary.

wolfdog wrote:James, I think a lot of these wolf instincts that remain in the dog have been chopped and changed by domestication. Selective breeding and the creation of specialist breeds (be they terriers for ratting or livestock guarding dogs) has had the effect of altering these behaviours to different extents depending on breed but probably also creating different side effects as well. I have seen nothing to me that suggests the German Shepherd has such recent wolf heritage, though the Czechoslovakian wolf-dog has a very well recorded pedigree and you can look here for some evidence of what wolf heritage can give you but to qualify that of course there has been some intense selection to produce a working dog. I will say that perhaps there is an intensity in this animal which puts makes it imperative to re-direct some of that energy!

Thanks wolfdog,

Perhaps a German shepherd was a bad example on my part, what I was trying to say was 'subtle' wolf instincts left compared to some other breeds of dogs and not that it is close to a wolf in a way a wolfdog is, I made a mess of what I was trying to say, for example the German Shepherd does have the body language abilities and coat similar to a wolf, ie Shaun Ellis explains that wolves rank can be seen by how dark the dark markings are they have on their ears, tail and back and that wolves use ear body language to each other when say feeding on a kill, they will show their rank by showing the markings on their ears to let others know, Shaun told me he has seen the dark markings on German Shepherd's become lighter in colour in 4-5 weeks if another German Shepherd or Human becomes part of the pack and is higher ranking than them.

My white West Highland terrier has no coat markings to show his rank to other dogs and may explain why given the chance he rolls in fox poop or pee, which as with most dogs that do this they dive in head first to get the dark markings of the fox poop on their head, ears and back which leaves similar dark markings in the areas mentioned above to show their rank, the theory being that as foxes mainly eat a high percentage meat diet this also helps a dog to higher his rank as higher ranks in a wolf pack will have a higher meat content diet, also could explain why he will roll in fox pee as well, again diet related to increase his rank, to me my dog is of natural high rank and does as mentioned in a way to let other dogs know he is high ranked by sight and scent.....some other dogs seem to roll in grass (with no fox pee present) or eat grass as another dog approaches, this could be that they are low ranked type and as the low ranks in a wolf pack get the stomach contents of a kill (which most will contain some grazing grass) and a lower meat diet, by eating or rolling in grass they hope to communicate to an approaching dog that they are low ranked in a way to avoid any confusion or confrontation.

What I mean by emotion isn't what others mean and I admit that at first the following premise will seem radical (and maybe even ultimately). I see emotion as a monolithic pull of attraction so that there aren't many emotions, there is only one and it is universal to all animals. And just as two objects can't occupy the same space at the same time, two animals going by pure emotion, no instinct, no habit, no fear, will always differentiate (cannot occupy the same emotional pole at the same time) in order to accommodate each other. So to me, emotion is the source of sociability. When however a state of attraction collapses, that is the source of any and all fear, and fear triggers instincts and/or habits in order to cope and this is what locks species into their specific niches, and individuals into their ingrained patterns.
So I would argue that because dogs have smaller brains, and less finely honed instincts, they are therefore more emotional than wolves, and therefore more adaptable in man's world and more spontaneously social with complete outsiders. And it's also easier to recover them from fear and reconvert it back to the original state of attraction from which fear derives. In other words, I'm saying that emotion is more fundamental than fear, the latter actually being a composite of attraction and the necessary collapse in order for it to be engendered.
So there is emotion as the seed of attraction underlying all behavior and it is true that there is some emotion in an angry outburst. But I would also like to note that whenever we see volatile, explosive behavior, we tend to mistakenly attribute it to emotion when I would argue it is really due to an instinct/fear/habit overriding the pure emotion and collapsing the state of attraction that in such an instance could only exist up to a certain intensity level given the circumstances and/or the parties involved.

I often dont view aggression in dogs as aggression as such but a form of communication, if you know how to communicate back then the perceived aggression often stops, that to me fits in with what you say and rebuilds the collapse of attraction and the social status quo recovered.

We know a dogs brain is smaller than that of a wolf, do you believe the theory that a dogs brain does not develop any further than a young wolf? and hence this contributes them being more social to us, more inquisitive than a wolf and allow a human to lead them where a wolf would never allow this.

Kevin, I am finding this a little hard to follow. I seemingly get the premise that there is only the one emotion, but are you saying that aggression (for example) is not part of this emotional state? A change of polarity if you will?

James, There are those that conclude that the dog brain is arrested at a stage of development in wolves equivalent to 4 months, when pups are social and open to new situations and social interactions. After this period in wolves they become less accepting to the new.

I call aggression blocked attraction because the dog is attracted to something with a very powerful force, but is simultaneously blocked and the intensity of the mounting pressure is exceeding the dog's capacity to handle the load, and so the attraction is on the verge of collapse. So, the dog dips into its stress reserves (what I call the emotional battery) and comes up with reserve energy in an attempt to maintain the feeling of attraction which has become tenuous. This block is adaptive in the sense of building up thrust so that the individual is able to overcome resistance by overpowering it, for example by building up a force and then rushing a prey which then causes it to run. (I liken this to a plane on the tarmac at full throttle and with brakes set so as to build up thrust for takeoff.) And when dogs run free this reserve energy will generally cause them to deflect into a circumspective and circular manner of approaching another dog because they have the time and space to let it unfold naturally between their same species, and so there's virtually no fighting with free ranging dogs. But when held back on leads, or behind barriers, the thrust becomes all consuming and this is when a dog attacks another one when the feeling collapses. The dog bites the other dog without any intention of hurting it or beating it or even dominating it, it's trying to hold on to stabilize its overwhelming feeling of collapse, (just as if it's falling) and bring the energy to ground by putting the dog down, so that it can stop feeling destabilized by this other dog's movements and "vibrations" (growls, posturing).
If however, one of the dogs could "flip polarity" and become soft or prey-like to the other dog that is stiff and predator like, then the dog won't feel blocked and the second dog that is being accommodating can now leverage the feeling of attraction and end up enjoying "control" over the so-called "dominant" dog. This is how most cats employ emotional jujitsu against dogs that are pressing in on them. The dog becomes wide open and vulnerable to the preyfulness of the cat because cats are so prey-like, and then the cat makes a lightening quick spit and hiss, but without doing it too hard which would have forced the dog to react, and which then shoots right into the dog's core temperament and paralyzes it.

If I have understood this correctly, going by what you explain if one dog 'submits' then this will 'block' the aggression, ie when you see one dog charge another from distance and pins the other dog down, if that dog 'submits' then all goes back to calmness.....which is an example most of us have seen, add though a panicking / nervous / frustrated or aggressive owner of one of the dogs in the ambient area and that negative 'energy' could cause the dogs to fight and cause injury or worse.

I have come across plenty of dogs that are off lead when my dog is on lead, when the dog approaches I make sure my dog is calm and me as well, I get him to sit and we just stand our ground, if the dog is 'charging' us in an aggressive fashion I will bang the stick I walk with into the ground when the dog is about 6 feet away in an effort to claim 'my space', they nearly always stop and either calm down which at that point I may invite them into my space or may run off back to the owner, some will circle around the back of me like a typical prey attack which at that point I continue to stand my ground and just swivel around on the spot, if there are multiple dogs one may stay at the front of me and the others go round the back of me for a pack attack, again I hold my ground and swivel around keeping an eye on both, I find that if I win the battle of the mind with the leader (generally the one who stays at the front) and say he just runs off then I find the others will follow him, so in effect multiple dogs are like dealing with one dog if as in most case like this at this stage its just a battle of the mind and nothing else....I accept this may make me seem prey like, but I have found that if I come across the same dog or dogs again they never bother me.

In most cases the dog approaching does not charge us and I will let him into my space, generally all he wants to do is sniff my dog and pays little or no attention to me, generally they sniff each other and all is fine, quite often the owner will say that their dog normally hates any dog on a lead, the difference here I believe is I am an owner who is calm and so is my dog, so its not like the normal 'safety' barrier you talk of, of a dog being 'brave' because he is behind a gate or straining at the end of a lead by a nervous or otherwise owner exhibiting some kind of negative emotion.

I think what you say is fine with dogs that are dogs, with some of the things I have seen dogs have been ruined to such an extent by their human owners (this could be from abuse or affection at the wrong times combined with not fulfilling the dogs basic needs, ie a high energy dog hardly taken for a walk and no mental stimulation etc), that some of these poor creatures seem so demented that the normal rules you explain do not apply and even if a dog submits the other dog may carrying on attacking or a dog that should submit seemingly would rather die than submit to any dog.

I think its possible that some of the dogs I am talking about here have damage which at times may be irreversible to the frontal lobes in their brain and they tend to lash out at anything and anything and become unpredictable, just as a human would with the same condition, I feel slightly nervous about mentioning this as I believe some behaviourists and vets take this as a cause of a dogs behaviour far too easily and doom it to be destroyed, in reality I think I may have seen this as a cause of their behaviour in about 2% of dogs...in most cases if you fulfil the dogs need over a period of time even the most demented of behaviour can almost be reversed if not completely.

I have helped with a number of dogs who the owner mentioned that behaviourists and vets said the dog should be destroyed, when I have found both had not understood the dog and where it was coming from.

Without proper tests which involve money its hard to know for sure, but I would say its actually quite rare as I have seen dogs recover from some horrendous things.

I haven’t done a good job explaining this in terms of a sequence of events so that yes, “submission” in the vast majority of cases prevents aggression, but I wasn’t using the term “blocked” to make that particular point. So I’ll recast things and hopefully it will be clearer.
Emotion is a force of attraction. If the way forward is open, i.e. if the object of attraction is appearing and acting in a conductive manner, then the dog goes toward the object of its attraction without experiencing any significant resistance. If however there is a fear about going forward, then the attraction is blocked and force builds up in the dog. (Fur rising on the top line for example is evidence of energy building up behind the block.)The intensity of this blocked energy or force triggers physical memories of unpleasant experiences and this is the source of aggressive behavior in that the aggressive dog actually sees or feels the other dog transgressing on it. It may look like the attack is unprovoked, but it always arises from data in the physical memory bank, i.e. the emotional battery. If highly attracted and strongly blocked, eventually the force hits an overload threshold and it comes out in an explosive surge. Meanwhile if the other dog “submits” when rushed, then it has put itself to the ground and this makes it conductive, i.e. prey-like and this invariably calms the aggressive dog. Not to mention that this can trigger positive physical memories and the two might quickly get along. (In rare instances the dog might attack the submissive dog however because the prey signal is so strong and its social circuits have been “fried” through over-stimulation. Either way it is still conforming to the principle of emotional conductivity. If the rabbit acts prey-like, the wolf will eat it. But were the rabbit to chase the wolf, I believe the wolf would run from the rabbit.) In general, smelling is enough to ground the vast majority of dogs, even when charged. And when a dog is on the ground, it is safer to approach for a sniff. (But even biting and mounting are also forms of the same urge for emotional grounding, simply more active forms of it. Emotion “wants” to run to “ground” and any act of ingestion from smelling to biting or rolling on something, is a form of grounding.)

My interpretation of the incident you’ve described with your dog is that you’ve accentuated your predatory aspect by both you and your dog remaining motionless, and especially by emphasizing the presence of the stick. Emotion reflects off of the predatory aspect and returns as an unaltered “ping” so to speak, like a sonar pulse returning to the sender. This piling up of pings in the approaching dogs’ perception of what it's getting into, triggers old fears in its memory banks (specifically memories of compression) and so it is additionally inhibited by your strong predatory aspect. (The predatory aspect reflects emotion, the preyful aspect absorbs emotion.) Every time they see you again the physical memory of your intense form recapitulates the experience and the dogs know to leave you alone on sight.
When you let a dog inside your circle, the dog by smelling your dog, is ingesting its preyful essence (anything to do with the physical body, any secretion, gland, urine, saliva, blood, absorbs emotion and is a preyful essence) and so it thus feels grounded and the original impulse of attraction is completed and the dog is calmed. The dog focuses on your dog as opposed to you because dogs have more preyful-ness than human beings.

Thanks for that Kevin,

In a way what I do by banging the stick into the round I can see would be similar to a horse stamping its feet to warn a predator not to enter its space, sheep do a similar thing as well.....so for a while I have thought that it makes me seem like prey......to at least some extent.

Some of these dogs that have charged us I have ended up spending some time with, with an open minded owner I have explained its no big deal and if we go on a structured pack walk your dog will bond with mine and me as well.....you see what I also do when banging the stick in the ground is remain calm and have no bad feelings towards the dog, I also make sure I portray a confident body language with my head held high and chest out to try and simulate a high ranking wolf / dog....also an attempt to introduce myself to the dog as higher ranked than him.

I accept at least part of what I do makes me prey like, but a lot of these dogs seem to 'listen' to me, for example say if said dog always pulls its owner when on the lead and often this can be why they walk them off lead as they finder it easier to do so......sometimes all I have to do is take the lead from the owner and the dog does not pull me at all and just calmly walks by my side and seems to take direction well, some may 'test' me to start with but by using.......... speed....direction.....control........technique most quickly fall into line.....

So I find it a bit hard to accept that a dog would follow or take direction from 'prey'.....which you seem to think I am exhibiting in what I do when I first meet these types......

Also most prey would eat a lot of grass / veg type food, as we know dogs have a very acute sense of smell, I eat a high % meat diet compared to any prey animal and would think dogs would pick up on this.

When another dog sniffs another I believe they are getting the following information, what sex they are, where they have been, what they have had for lunch, what rank they are and do a complete body scan to see if they are in good health.....

Jamesp wrote:

"In a way what I do by banging the stick into the round I can see would be similar to a horse stamping its feet to warn a predator not to enter its space, sheep do a similar thing as well.....so for a while I have thought that it makes me seem like prey......to at least some extent."

My model is that every living being is like a point on a continuum, that its form embodies a specific ratio of predator relative to prey values, just as every atom has a relative electrical charge along the periodic table depending on electrons relative to protons (if my understanding of basic physics serves me here). So a horse would have a large predatory aspect in conjunction with a large preyful aspect. A rabbit would have proportionally a large preyful aspect relative to a tiny predatory aspect. A human a large predatory and relatively small preyful aspect. Therefore when the horse stomps, it is expressing its predatory aspect and changing its conductive value in the eyes of another being. And if we were to look at it from horse' point of view, it is attracted to something but can't go toward it, and so it stomps the ground to get rid of this excess energy of attraction that's not moving, a behavior which is akin to running toward what it's attracted to. It's literally running in place and this can indeed intimidate another horse or dog and make it move away, which means from the stomping horse' perspective that what it was attracted to but blocked by, was converted from predator into a far more preyful ratio on the continuum and so stomping (running in place) feels good and changes the way the outside world works. So I take an immediate-moment interpretation of interactions rather than a logical one.

JAMES: "So I find it a bit hard to accept that a dog would follow or take direction from 'prey'.....which you seem to think I am exhibiting in what I do when I first meet these types......"

The physical body, the bulbous, curved aspects within its form, and any secretions or exhalations, are preyful aspects and this makes the dog feel grounded, so the human form is neither prey in toto or predator overall, but has some degree of preyfulness relative to predatory aspect (the latter being eyes, and then hands incorporated into directed focus of eyes). The preyful value makes the dog feel safe to make contact and then allows us to deflect a dog's focus onto a path we want it to take. Whereas were we sheer predatory energy to a dog, we can't achieve a blend within our dog, we can just give it a simple on/off switch and the dog has no means to integrate this into more complex manner of affiliation. It's like a neuron, just firing on and off won't generate complexity. The simple on/off modalities have to blend within a wave form of other neurons firing in synchrony and achieving patterns that end up rendering meaning.

JAMES:
"When another dog sniffs another I believe they are getting the following information, what sex they are, where they have been, what they have had for lunch, what rank they are and do a complete body scan to see if they are in good health.....

I believe that when a dog smells another it is picking up its overall emotional conductivity and I think this is primarily regulated by the endocrine and immune
systems, and also the system of O Rings that control every valve, gland, muscle, duct and so on in the organism. All body function would contribute to this conductivity state but I'm resisting the theory that dogs pick up some kind of intellectual assessment via such concepts as health, status etc. And the most important information they're picking up is the nature of the charge being held back in the beings "emotional battery." So often a dog will smell someone and then erupt and bark in their face. It's picking up energy that's being held back, (and in the future will emerge to its detriment) which is also why dogs alert on criminals even though the person isn't doing anything and the dog has never seen the person before. In regards to this, some dogs and cats seem particularly attracted to sick people and so while their health isn't good, their emotional conductivity is high because their personal ego isn't adding resistance to their overall energetic statement within this prey/predator ratio. They're not holding back their deep energy reserve to sustain a persona which they present to the world, they're actually more in touch with their whole being than otherwise.
Also, dogs are constantly smelling each other, no matter how familiar they are, and no matter how long they are together and yet their relative social status if there is such a thing should not have changed just because a few minutes or even seconds have passed. Even under conditions of combat the private knows the Lieutenant is the Lieutenant. Whereas if status has to be constantly renewed, then I don't see how it could be called a status that confers a long term benefit. We also see dogs frequently investigate their own eliminations. So I believe dogs smell because the emotional conductivity of a moment is always fluctuating and whenever the dog feels a displacement, it then has to ground this unsettled energy back into the object of its attraction so as to maintain the emotional connection between them. In my view the connection isn't mental, but physical and dependent on the notion of emotional conductivity. In other words, dog A only learns to trust dog B, and only knows dog B, in terms of this principle of conductivity. If the values change and disturbs the ratio which is the basis of their connection, then B is no longer dog B in dog A's mind. It's a different dog as far as A is concerned and can know in that moment. So again, my model compels me to make an immediate-moment interpretation rather than a logical one.

I am not saying what I do is right or wrong and as I gain knowledge the amount of times I have to bang a stick into the ground reduces as I have found that as the dog approaches even if charging I can use state of mind and body language more often than not to stop the dog or calm the situation down, its really hard to explain exactly using written text......well for me anyway.....

This is where having an open mind I find very important as its very easy to close the mind in the direction of what we believe...so I am more than happy to always try and learn some more.....or better ways etc.....

I find your theories very interesting, I am somewhat finding it a bit difficult to understand it all....so please bear me with here......I find myself nodding in agreement to some of what you say then the next sentence seems to somewhat contradict partially at least or is just my lack of understanding.

I do accept that dogs are more emotional than logical......

Regarding the sniffing though I do believe they 'compute' information, for example I know someone who had a small lump on their leg, their German Shepherd dog would not leave this area alone and pawed the lump and made it bleed, this forced the owner to go to the hospital where they diagnosed cancer and said the dog probably saved your life as we managed to catch it early enough....the person recovered....the point is the person had no emotional attachment to this small lump as they just viewed it as a harmless wart or similar......the dog knew this lump was bad news through scent, so to me must have some intelligence capacity to realise this, I am not saying the dog knew it was cancer but knew it was something that was needed to get rid of.