Anyone heard of 'Natural Dog Training' ?

Regarding the sniffing and you mention they constantly sniff each other, I dont think this is to keep checking what rank the other dog is, they know that already with dogs they know, but they will sniff to try and gain any knew information that might be available.....just like when we come home from work and our dog sniffs us, to get any knew information we may have, like where have we been, who with etc.....if we have a scent of another dog on us they tend to pay more attention and sniff more to get the information about the dog.......

People with multiple dogs will often find that when they come home one dog always gets to them first to sniff and get any new information, its the higher rank dog that does this and then steps this new information down to the lower ranks in the pack, thats why if a human owner who has a favourite dog within their pack who is lower ranked can cause a fight between their dogs by giving this new information to a lower ranked first and therefore breaking the social structure / hierarchy of how new information should be shared, it makes sense to me that an alpha should have this information first as they are the decision makers and hence need the information before anyone else.....

Shaun Ellis explains what I am trying to say here.....

Jamesp wrote:I am not saying what I do is right or wrong and as I gain knowledge the amount of times I have to bang a stick into the ground reduces as I have found that as the dog approaches even if charging I can use state of mind and body language more often than not to stop the dog or calm the situation down, its really hard to explain exactly using written text......well for me anyway....."

Actually, I think that intuitively you are doing something very effective, skillfully manipulating the amount of predatory relative to preyful energy signature you and your dog are putting out (dog and human on horizon appear small to oncoming dog and hence big prey signal in conjunction with a strong emotional charge), so that the emotional balance of the oncoming dog is similarly manipulated to your advantage. I'm just interpreting it through an energy immediate-moment model that I believe in the final analysis avoids many pitfalls.


JAMES: "Regarding the sniffing though I do believe they 'compute' information, for example I know someone who had a small lump on their leg, their German Shepherd dog would not leave this area alone and pawed the lump and made it bleed, this forced the owner to go to the hospital where they diagnosed cancer and said the dog probably saved your life as we managed to catch it early enough....the person recovered....the point is the person had no emotional attachment to this small lump as they just viewed it as a harmless wart or similar......the dog knew this lump was bad news through scent, so to me must have some intelligence capacity to realise this, I am not saying the dog knew it was cancer but knew it was something that was needed to get rid of.

Well, we have this emotional brain (Enteric nervous system) deep in our gut and it generates emotional states of which we're not aware. So my interpretation of the above dog is that unbeknownst to the human, the growth represents an emotional charge, a spike in the continuum and this is what draws the attention of the dog. It can sense the emotional charge that the person's body is investing in this growth, which is apparently according to some the body's attempt to isolate a toxin to where it will do the least damage even though it may ultimately be fatal. So in my model the growth has does indeed have a charged value in terms of the principle of emotional conductivity.

[quote="Jamesp"]Regarding the sniffing and you mention they constantly sniff each other, I dont think this is to keep checking what rank the other dog is, they know that already with dogs they know, but they will sniff to try and gain any knew information that might be available.....just like when we come home from work and our dog sniffs us, to get any knew information we may have, like where have we been, who with etc.....if we have a scent of another dog on us they tend to pay more attention and sniff more to get the information about the dog.......

I would say the smell of a new dog is an intensification of the charge, and more preyful essences on our person.

JAMES: "People with multiple dogs will often find that when they come home one dog always gets to them first to sniff and get any new information, its the higher rank dog that does this and then steps this new information down to the lower ranks in the pack, thats why if a human owner who has a favourite dog within their pack who is lower ranked can cause a fight between their dogs by giving this new information to a lower ranked first and therefore breaking the social structure / hierarchy of how new information should be shared, it makes sense to me that an alpha should have this information first as they are the decision makers and hence need the information before anyone else....."

I interpret jockeying for position not to have anything to do with gaining information in that sense. And I disagree with what Shaun Ellis says about the leader having the most information. I would say that the leader is the one who wants the moose the most, because after all, the purpose of a leader is to lead, and canines need to be led in nothing else but the hunt and there's a lot of danger in going after a moose. I also don't believe that there is decision making on the part of the leader or any other member either. You can see that there's a problem with a linear dominance hierarchy because Ellis has to call a beta individual "the enforcer" which is a further personification of the wolf mind. The alpha having the most moose energy is not destablised by something that does displace the "enforcer" and so this individual comes in from behind when another individual is expressing too much energy for the more limited capacity of the "enforcer." So Ellis has to create this new class of status to account for the motive in the beta dog when there is a simpler explanation.
I liken the canine social structure to that of a choir. Each individual must vibrate at a different pitch in order to make harmony. In every litter, Temperament (with a capital "T") distributes genes so that individuals vary according to an innate disposition of fear-relative-to-desire (and this is known to each individual by virtue of its balance and hunger processes) into a range of temperaments so that some are invariably more bold than others. These want the prey more than the other go first and the others are happy to follow. Furthermore, when they encounter the prey, they will radiate around it in a circle according to their temperamental disposition.
Another way of visualizing this is that every automobile driver has a temperament wherein they want to drive a certain speed relative to the fear of crashing or getting a speeding ticket. When I get behind someone driving too slow, I want to "out vibrate" them and get up to my set point, but I'm not trying to dominate them. Conversely, when I'm in the fast lane and a car gets closes in fast from behind, I want to get out of its way because it is going too fast for my comfort level and not because I want to appease the other driver. So canines self-stratify according to their temperaments which are concerned with energetic ratios, rather than according to any notion of leadership or information in the general meaning of the terms.
Jockeying for position when owner comes to the door are the dogs trying to find their specific pitch, which incidentally is exactly akin to infant pups orienting to a specific nipple from which the milk's rate of flow matches its temperament. The problem is that this jockeying builds up a charge, and unlike wolves that get to go out and hunt together, the family dog rarely has this opportunity except in weak facsimile form, walk around the block, game of fetch, (which for many temperaments does suffice, but for others is more a source of frustration). So I try to live with a dog to minimize the pack instincts, which are stress loads, and maximize the group energy, which allows for the disposition of stress and thus calmness. The pack is all about balance and too much energy is upsetting. Whereas the group is all about hunger and the more energy the better. If dogs perceive children as fellow group beings, then the kids can do whatever they want and the dog doesn't become unbalanced. But if it's on a strict pack regime, the kids have to watch their step.
This is why the alpha is non-plussed by the doings of the smaller "t"s, its deepest reserve energy is tuned to the moose frequency and so the pack bickering (deer frequency) doesn't affect its sense of balance to the same degree because it's living for the group experience and is innately attuned to the internal ratio of the moose.

I know this is long winded, hope it makes sense, thanks,

Kevin Behan wrote: Well, we have this emotional brain (Enteric nervous system) deep in our gut and it generates emotional states of which we're not aware. So my interpretation of the above dog is that unbeknownst to the human, the growth represents an emotional charge, a spike in the continuum and this is what draws the attention of the dog. It can sense the emotional charge that the person's body is investing in this growth, which is apparently according to some the body's attempt to isolate a toxin to where it will do the least damage even though it may ultimately be fatal. So in my model the growth has does indeed have a charged value in terms of the principle of emotional conductivity.

Most people are unaware that our stomach / gut is a second brain that we have in our bodies, albeit that we are not aware of it as you say, it does not have any conscious function, but is constantly making decisions for the bodies sake....

Thats an interesting point you make and one I have over looked....

We know that dogs somehow are very in tuned to the healthy state of our bodies as we now train dogs to help people with epilepsy and diabetes, about 40 mins before an epileptic attack we know the body produces a chemical on our skin which the dog can smell / sense and warn the owner of an upcoming attack, likewise people with diabetes the dog can smell / sense when the blood sugar levels are getting to low and again warn the owner.......

I do accept that as well as scent dogs can somehow sense our bodies health as well, one thing nagging me though is that we know dogs can smell to a level of at least one part per trillion, so is it a combination of sense and smell that triggers the response in the way you describe?

Kevin Behan wrote: Actually, I think that intuitively you are doing something very effective, skillfully manipulating the amount of predatory relative to preyful energy signature you and your dog are putting out (dog and human on horizon appear small to oncoming dog and hence big prey signal in conjunction with a strong emotional charge), so that the emotional balance of the oncoming dog is similarly manipulated to your advantage. I'm just interpreting it through an energy immediate-moment model that I believe in the final analysis avoids many pitfalls.

Thanks for that, so while my reasoning might not be the correct one it is an effective way of dealing with the situation, its an area of interest with me so people can stop the amount of dog fights / attacks that happen which usually the dog pays the ultimate price by being destroyed when he was just being a dog and if people knew what to do then this could be reduced, as when trying to help someone with their dog I find I can often get the dog to 'behave' but the owners using the same techniques as me cannot, so I become more nervous / aware that just because I can get a dog to respond to me it doesn't mean others can even if using the same technique as how I feel inside at the time I consider to be a large factor and as this is not something you can show a human so they can see it in a way a lot of humans want to then this ends up the largest obstacle for success in my view.....

[quote="Kevin Behan"]

Jamesp wrote:Regarding the sniffing and you mention they constantly sniff each other, I dont think this is to keep checking what rank the other dog is, they know that already with dogs they know, but they will sniff to try and gain any knew information that might be available.....just like when we come home from work and our dog sniffs us, to get any knew information we may have, like where have we been, who with etc.....if we have a scent of another dog on us they tend to pay more attention and sniff more to get the information about the dog.......

I would say the smell of a new dog is an intensification of the charge, and more preyful essences on our person.

JAMES: "People with multiple dogs will often find that when they come home one dog always gets to them first to sniff and get any new information, its the higher rank dog that does this and then steps this new information down to the lower ranks in the pack, thats why if a human owner who has a favourite dog within their pack who is lower ranked can cause a fight between their dogs by giving this new information to a lower ranked first and therefore breaking the social structure / hierarchy of how new information should be shared, it makes sense to me that an alpha should have this information first as they are the decision makers and hence need the information before anyone else....."

I interpret jockeying for position not to have anything to do with gaining information in that sense. And I disagree with what Shaun Ellis says about the leader having the most information. I would say that the leader is the one who wants the moose the most, because after all, the purpose of a leader is to lead, and canines need to be led in nothing else but the hunt and there's a lot of danger in going after a moose. I also don't believe that there is decision making on the part of the leader or any other member either. You can see that there's a problem with a linear dominance hierarchy because Ellis has to call a beta individual "the enforcer" which is a further personification of the wolf mind. The alpha having the most moose energy is not destablised by something that does displace the "enforcer" and so this individual comes in from behind when another individual is expressing too much energy for the more limited capacity of the "enforcer." So Ellis has to create this new class of status to account for the motive in the beta dog when there is a simpler explanation.
I liken the canine social structure to that of a choir. Each individual must vibrate at a different pitch in order to make harmony. In every litter, Temperament (with a capital "T") distributes genes so that individuals vary according to an innate disposition of fear-relative-to-desire (and this is known to each individual by virtue of its balance and hunger processes) into a range of temperaments so that some are invariably more bold than others. These want the prey more than the other go first and the others are happy to follow. Furthermore, when they encounter the prey, they will radiate around it in a circle according to their temperamental disposition.
Another way of visualizing this is that every automobile driver has a temperament wherein they want to drive a certain speed relative to the fear of crashing or getting a speeding ticket. When I get behind someone driving too slow, I want to "out vibrate" them and get up to my set point, but I'm not trying to dominate them. Conversely, when I'm in the fast lane and a car gets closes in fast from behind, I want to get out of its way because it is going too fast for my comfort level and not because I want to appease the other driver. So canines self-stratify according to their temperaments which are concerned with energetic ratios, rather than according to any notion of leadership or information in the general meaning of the terms.
Jockeying for position when owner comes to the door are the dogs trying to find their specific pitch, which incidentally is exactly akin to infant pups orienting to a specific nipple from which the milk's rate of flow matches its temperament. The problem is that this jockeying builds up a charge, and unlike wolves that get to go out and hunt together, the family dog rarely has this opportunity except in weak facsimile form, walk around the block, game of fetch, (which for many temperaments does suffice, but for others is more a source of frustration). So I try to live with a dog to minimize the pack instincts, which are stress loads, and maximize the group energy, which allows for the disposition of stress and thus calmness. The pack is all about balance and too much energy is upsetting. Whereas the group is all about hunger and the more energy the better. If dogs perceive children as fellow group beings, then the kids can do whatever they want and the dog doesn't become unbalanced. But if it's on a strict pack regime, the kids have to watch their step.
This is why the alpha is non-plussed by the doings of the smaller "t"s, its deepest reserve energy is tuned to the moose frequency and so the pack bickering (deer frequency) doesn't affect its sense of balance to the same degree because it's living for the group experience and is innately attuned to the internal ratio of the moose.

I know this is long winded, hope it makes sense, thanks,

It makes sense, thanks for taking the time to explain and bearing with me while I digest your views.....

I think Shaun would agree with you that in the main wolves live like a group or a family most of the time, where this changes is feeding on a kill and when the alpha female comes into season, Shaun has observed that when feeding on a kill the alphas will eat the liver, heart and kidney, the beta / enforcers choice cuts of the meat, hunter ranks movement meat and the lowest rank mainly stomach content of the kill, its his belief that what the wolves eat help to keep them balanced as a group and the content helps them do their specific job within the pack.....

If food becomes scarce and wolves have to resort to say eating fish / salmon then they are not feeding on a particular part of the kill any more and all the wolves are on the same diet, Shaun has seen that the wolves then act like hooligan teenagers and the balance of the pack becomes out of sync and they exhibit unwolf like behaviour.

I think at least in part the actions of the wolves are the same as you and Shaun say but the reasoning behind it of a different view point.

Shaun along with others has seen predators and prey drink together at a watering hole, I assume as the predators are not in hunting mode at this moment in time the prey know this by the electrical charge in the air and hence they are quite relaxed at that moment in time having a predator nearby....

I've seen too many animals know things on sight and in an instant about another person or animal, without doing any scenting whatsoever, so that I believe it's a sense more than smell and we'd probably have to get into quantum physics to go further. But, because every emotional affect has a physiological component that then changes internal chemistry and thereby rendering a smell no doubt, and then because the only thing we can reliably train and replicate in regards to these powers is the dog's sense of smell, that is what we must end up focusing on if we want to put it to work for our ends, but again it's but one facet.
It's interesting about the diet and the interpretation of rank based on that. It's hard to sift through the biology because I've heard that wolves first eat the molten fat surrounding the belly as it contains the most energy, and then they eat the intestines and stomach lining as it contains enzymes to digest better, but who knows. All observations could be correct varying by time of year, climate, nature of prey and so on. But at any rate, I believe that if we carry the logic out, we can see that such observations about diet and behavior dispute the existence of a hierarchy of social rank as in one animal dominant over another. For example. A human can be truly dominant, and can eat a vegetarian diet and yet their dominance impulse abates not a bit. And even if their diet reduces a certain hormone level and makes them more compliant, since dominance is ultimately a thought they could see themselves slipping and up their intention to be more dominant so as to offset the effects of a passive-inducing diet.
So the question is what compels an alpha wolf to want to eat certain parts of the kill first? It's obviously some kind of internal chemistry which targets specific organs or meats as more or less emotionally conductive, and this particular diet then reinforces the underlying appetite with an upping of hormones and so on. So the internal chemistry of the individual is a form of information that organizes its disposition, rather than there being a thought or intention about dominance, which we can see in humans exists independently of body chemistry. So again, I would like to emphasize that the internal energies are analogues to the laws of nature, gravity, laws of motion, electric, magnetism, and these provide the architecture for the self-organizing capacity of social animals, as well as the primitive interactions between prey and predator. If diet affects behavior, then I suggest that certain nutrients concentrate a charge, facilitate the production of hormones, and render such an individual feeling more conductive and therefore less inhibited by the predatory aspect of the moose than the others. We then label it as dominant.
These distinctions I believe ultimately matter because if one studies a well-functioning team, one observes very little personality. Every player orients around a common want, the will to win and is willing to sublimate personal glory for a role that makes the team more effective. But a losing team has a lot of personality with players trying to make the highlight reel on the sports news channel. So the alpha/beta/omega personality approach emphasizes displays of personality and I'm arguing that this in inimical to a smooth functioning team, of sublimating personal ambition for the greater good. This philosophy is teaching owners to invest energy and attention into their dog's personality rather than training the dog to align around a group purpose. Ultimately this percolates into techniques of training as well.

Having played in a number of sports teams in the past to a reasonable level I would say it helps any team to have a good leader, not necessarily a dominant type but someone who has 'superior knowledge' to help guide the team to success and know what to do in any given situation , others in the team may be more beta / enforcer like but even them are prepared to follow a calm leader with superior knowledge as experience tells them it worked in the past.....also quite often a criminal gang will have beta types that are the muscle and do any enforcing required and often they follow a physically weaker leader but one of strong mind and again of superior knowledge.....I am a bit uncomfortable comparing wolves to humans as we are primates and not canid.

Shaun has managed to live with wolves in the wild for approx 2 years, he never used dominance, he lived by their rules, his army training enabled him to survive, he never lit a fire and ate raw food as the wolves did, this is the main factor that led him to leave the wolves as he knew he wouldn't survive much longer on a raw diet, after going through a painstaking process to be accepted by the wolves they treated him like one of the youngsters, so he wasn't required to hunt and stay at the den site, if the wolves went too far away to bring back a kill they would regurgitate food into Shaun's mouth as they would do with the young......

Shaun's wolves are treated differently to other captive packs, where possible Shaun has used natural enhancement, a lot of captive wolves fight amongst each other and often adolescents have to be sent to other zoo's, Shaun plays audio recordings of wolves howling to his wolves to create the illusion that they think there are other wolf packs nearby, this makes the wolves work as a team as they need to, to be able ward off the threat of a rival pack, whereas other captive wolves know there are no other wolves nearby and hence turn on themselves...a bit like the UK in the 2nd world war, knowing there was a threat from a rival country (pack) the whole country worked together, in times of relative peace and little or no threat people tend to turn on each other and the state of the UK now in terms of social dis-function somewhat supports that theory.....

I am not saying that Shaun has all the answers or is correct about all that he says, just that someone who has observed and lived with wolves in the wild and managed to survive to tell the tale deserves at least some credence.

I how no doubt you are excellent with dogs as is Shaun, Cesar Millan and a whole host of other behaviourists even though the beliefs, methods and theories may differ.....

In the end it does boil down to interpretation and at some point a leap of faith. I interpret pack instincts, such as displays of dominance and submission as emotional overloads that sooner or later lead to problems in the household dog. However if everyone knows the balance points, then they can navigate their way without upset, but my critique is that if there's a large input of energy then things fall apart in some way. Nevertheless if I were tasked to insert myself into a wolf pack, I would want to have a long talk with Shaun to make sure I was aware of these balance points and the protocols of maintaining stasis. I do think there is a direct philosophical connection between human and canine teamwork. My definition of a group is when all members can openly share the same desire. My definition of a pack is when they must guard their desires from each other. My definition of a true leader is when its knowledge encompasses how to make the desires of the others come true.

Thanks Kevin,

How do you go about 'helping' people to take the leap of faith you refer to?

What I mean is here that if I am helping someone with their dog (regardless of who's methods used) and they just won't accept things that will help them and their dog and they won't listen and or keep an open mind.....

I find the 'human wall' the hardest part to overcome and in most parts the dogs relatively easy.....

I try and be very patient with them, calm, etc, but all too often they end up deciding its easier to put up with the dogs behaviour than put in the effort required.

Just wondered if you had any ideas in this regard.....thank you....

Actually my next book, "Your Dog Is Your Mirror" arose from that very question. I was always fighting people's urge to revert back to past ways that led to the problem and then I started to notice how the dog's problem behavior was pleasing to them on some level. From recognizing the inverse relationship between emotion and unresolved emotion, or stress, and how this constructs a network consciousness, I was able to see that the dog was picking up the unresolved emotion in its owner, and then translating this back into the energetic expression that best moved it according to the animal way of dealing with things. Since an animal's expression of energy is exactly akin to how a very young child expresses energy (as in "I wish you (or I) were dead." even though they have no comprehension of the consequences of such an expression, it can look to the adult intellectual mind as very shocking and self-destructive indeed. But the young child only senses that the words pack a lot of wallop and move a lot of energy so they're seeking relief with such words without understanding what the words or their actions mean in a linear way of looking at it. A dog might pick up an owner's anger that is being masked by their overly friendly personality and express it with violence which is a truer expression of their owner than the owner's forced "niceness." But the dog has no idea it is hurting others or putting itself into jeopardy. In fact, it feels how this pleases the animal in its owner. So no matter how much an owner may intellectually be aghast at what their dog is doing, and turn to trainers for help, the real deal is that the dog is expressing what they can't either because they're afraid to, or because they're unaware of what unresolved emotion they're holding. In short dogs are never wrong. At any rate, I work at not looking at problem behavior as "the problem" with my job being to change the dog and make it go away. The dog's behavior is an opportunity for the owner to express something, most importantly to themselves. So I try to encourage owners to understand it as an opportunity in this way so that the training process is like a physical therapy program for the owner with dog seen as-being-part-of-its-owner, rather than a training regime with dog as-a-Being-apart-from-its-owner. I think some people get this on their own and then the training method almost doesn't matter. Some people have such a deep need with the dog this has to run its course so that they can find their reflection and no amount of intervention might help. I think the ultimate lesson for us as trainers as we deepen our understanding of dogs is humility.

Kevin,

That is a very good post, thank you, it is very much the way I think as well, often I do nothing or little with the dog and much more with the owner....on average 20% dog and 80% owner.....

Maybe we should be studying human behaviour and not dog behaviour as much....perhaps in this sense we are barking up the wrong tree?...

The mirror concept you have does often rings true in my experience....when dealing with perfectly nice people but they quickly go from calm to frustration / anger...or as they see people or other dogs approaching they dont like and inside they are having a conversation along the lines of...."oh no not this horrible dog and idiot again"....etc.....with these people feeling these quick and strong emotions inside and sometimes outwardly (with spoken word) then wonder why their dog acts like a demented animal.......

Same dog doing nothing but handed over to a calm person and the dog is fine....

I agree about it helping a human to be more balanced, working with dogs has made me a much, if not better person, but much calmer than I was....in fact one of the reasons I love working with dogs so much is that I feel totally relaxed in their 'world'....after working with a dog and I come back to the human world I often can't wait to get back in their 'world' again, its a much better place than ours in my view....no envy, jealousy, denial or other human negative emotions.

Some people will find it hard to comprehend and believe that dogs can improve their lives to a great extent, dogs are very good teachers if people will only open their minds and listen.....

Hi Kevin,

Taking into account your theories, the vibration you talk of being bounced back and forth between animals.....

Does this vibration mainly come from the front of an animal / human, not so much from side and little or nothing from the back?

I ask this as when dealing with some dog behaviours including fearful / nervous types that on the first meeting with them I find it better to stand side on to them rather than head on and in some cases turn my back completely so I am offering no confrontation at all to them and then they are more likely to come and investigate me, which then I don't talk, don't touch them and don't give eye contact and just let them sniff me and generally let them find out about me that way without interrupting them....

So going by your theory I assume I send less vibrations when standing side on and little or none when I turn my back?

The reverse seems true when dealing with a confident 'aggressive' (I hate that term) dog that say has lost trust in humans from abuse or something other reason, turn your back on them and they may 'dominate' (hate that term as well) you or attack you, but face them and hold your ground and remain calm and its far less likely they will even approach you......A lot of the time this type of 'aggression' I feel is based on fear but comes out in a different form with these types of dogs than explained above which they deal with by just trying to avoid anyone....

These are my experiences as well. When you face a dog, you are showing them your "predatory aspect" (eyes and stillness of form) and this bounces the energy they project onto you right back at them. So if they are projecting fear at you, it returns to them as fear and they lose confidence as they are stewing in their own juices. If you stand with your back to them, and better yet are moving away, then you are showing them your "preyful aspect" and this absorbs their energy and makes it safe for them to make contact (which doesn't mean you won't be bitten if they're seeking to unload a charge). And then when you are standing or better yet moving in parallel with them, this is synchronizing your energy with theirs, which is a more evolved way of connecting with them at a higher level of integration. So I don't think it's incidental that heeling/herding is a big aspect of the canine repertoire.
So the vibration we're putting out is the relationship between our predatory aspect and our preyful aspect, our willingness to project energy relative to our vulnerability at absorbing energy. This turns our body into a semiconductor. Sometimes we absorb and conduct another's energy, sometimes we reflect it back and interrupt, and sometimes we align so that we can reflect and absorb simultaneously so that a process of integration can evolve into its higher forms of bonding. Our body as animated by our mind and disseminating itself via a complex ratio and then mix of a constantly oscillating signal is like the semi-conductive logic gate in a computer. How we pulse between these two values becoming variably conductive ends up being a signal, just like binary code running through a computer, or a radio wave reaching a receiver.

Thanks Kevin,

Love him or hate him what you describe, to me, is what makes the likes of Cesar Millan good with 'aggressive' dogs and some people who use his methods have a negative experience as they are not the same type of person and hence don't project the same energy as him and therefore fail....as the 'energy' projected is more important than the methods used....would you broadly agree with that?

I am similar in character to Cesar Millan and along with in depth research of his methods and exactly how to apply them according to him, get similar results as he does when dealing with an 'aggressive' dog or a fearful nervous type for that matter....

What I don't have is a balanced pack of dogs as he does to 'teach' unstable dogs how to be a dog, he admits himself in one of his books that balanced dogs are much better at teaching another dog how to be a dog than we ever will.

I don't just use his methods and I tend to errr on the side of using as least 'dominance' as possible and use other methods as well I have learnt from other behaviourists...etc.....really depends on what I feel best suits the dog / dogs and the owner....

You talk about when in parallel with a dog helps the bonding process and integration, I couldn't agree more as when helping with a dog I like to go on a long walk with them first by my side to bond with them before I do any work, also dogs that have been aggressive or even bitten each other when they met for the first time face to face often calm down or ignore each other when walking side by side and I find this helps a lot in the process of them bonding and becoming 'friends'.....

With just some simple knowledge of how to act around a dog so many bites, attacks and dogs destroyed could be avoided....

1) what makes the likes of Cesar Millan good with 'aggressive' dogs and some people who use his methods have a negative experience as they are not the same type of person and hence don't project the same energy as him and therefore fail....as the 'energy' projected is more important than the methods used....would you broadly agree with that?

I would broadly agree with that but within that subject there remains a lot of room for exploration; for example, what do we mean by energy, what exactly do we mean by the projection of energy, what are feelings and emotion relative to instincts and that sort of thing. And then a very important question would be, does energy have its own motive, or is it inert?

2) Balanced dogs are much better at teaching another dog how to be a dog than we ever will.

In practice that is very true, but in theory, if energy is universal, which I would argue is the case; then therefore if a human were to increase our preyful aspect and are aware of our predatory aspect and how the two interrelate as in the facing/aligning/withdrawing from a dog and a whole host of other things, we could in theory duplicate the energy of another dog. In other words, one can socialize a dog to dogs without having dogs to socialize with. What really limits us in regards to dogs, is our intellectual propensity for goals and expectations, the sensation of time, and then how that affects the ego. A dog has nothing to prove unlike the human.

3) With just some simple knowledge of how to act around a dog so many bites, attacks and dogs destroyed could be avoided....

I agree. I think it’s possible to live in a world virtually without dog bites. I read somewhere that if an Indian surprised a rattlesnake it wouldn’t strike him because of their reverence for animals. And I’ve learned from my work with aggressive dogs that you have to give a dog “permission” to bite you.

Kevin Behan wrote:1) what makes the likes of Cesar Millan good with 'aggressive' dogs and some people who use his methods have a negative experience as they are not the same type of person and hence don't project the same energy as him and therefore fail....as the 'energy' projected is more important than the methods used....would you broadly agree with that?

I would broadly agree with that but within that subject there remains a lot of room for exploration; for example, what do we mean by energy, what exactly do we mean by the projection of energy, what are feelings and emotion relative to instincts and that sort of thing. And then a very important question would be, does energy have its own motive, or is it inert?

They are good points that you make, one example would be someone having a 'macho' feeling towards a dog when using his methods or someone having an objective of calming the dog down....the latter being far more successful in the short and long term, I think most dogs can work out very quickly what your intentions are if you know how to communicate that to them, as you say a lot of room for exploration...


2) Balanced dogs are much better at teaching another dog how to be a dog than we ever will.



In practice that is very true, but in theory, if energy is universal, which I would argue is the case; then therefore if a human were to increase our preyful aspect and are aware of our predatory aspect and how the two interrelate as in the facing/aligning/withdrawing from a dog and a whole host of other things, we could in theory duplicate the energy of another dog. In other words, one can socialize a dog to dogs without having dogs to socialize with. What really limits us in regards to dogs, is our intellectual propensity for goals and expectations, the sensation of time, and then how that affects the ego. A dog has nothing to prove unlike the human.

Most people I know that are good with dogs have learnt to let go of their ego, its a must in my view, I agree with what you say here but perhaps dogs will always be quicker and more efficient at it taking into account other factors ie that its easier for them to communicate with each other being the same species.....CM says he can achieve the same results but it takes him much longer to do so.



3) With just some simple knowledge of how to act around a dog so many bites, attacks and dogs destroyed could be avoided....

I agree. I think it’s possible to live in a world virtually without dog bites. I read somewhere that if an Indian surprised a rattlesnake it wouldn’t strike him because of their reverence for animals. And I’ve learned from my work with aggressive dogs that you have to give a dog “permission” to bite you.

Indian people and tribes across the world are still in touch with mother nature far more than most of us, ie a 3 year old can lead a horse without thinking about it, they know to leave something in the environment for tomorrow etc....I know the native American Indians taught Shaun Elliss a lot about wolves before he managed to live with them in the wild

I have responded above in blue........

I have been watching the following videos on your website with regard to the 'push' 'pull' technique you employ, if I have understood it correctly this method discharges the 'energy' / 'electricity' and preyfulness in the item used in the tug of war?

If thats right how long on average does it take before the item becomes neutral and the dog no longer enters into a tug of war with it?...and does it vary from breed to breed or dog to dog significantly?

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/speaking-pushing-and-tug-of-war-with-bootsy/

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/kevin-behan-playing-tug-with-big-black-dog/

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/kevin-pushing-and-pulling-with-hessian/

This video shows Kevin's skill and timing with a dog, I like the subtle use of 'dominance' with a well timed touch, body language and using the dogs natural instinct to come forward or back off, its quite similar I would say to speed....direction.....control techniques in the way Kevin changes speed and direction to get the dog to follow him.....

Notice when Kevin moves towards the dog the dog walks backwards and when Kevin walks backwards the dog jumps on him....

I also like that Kevin refuses to be distracted by (I guess) the owners questions, I think Kevin would agree you have to be in the 'zone' when working with a dog....

http://naturaldogtraining.com/videos/kevin-heel-training-with-laszlo/

Thanks James. What I'm trying to do is to induce the dog to "project" its center-of-gravity into me and my movements, like a rider on a horse, so that we merge and pivot around one midpoint, as if we share the same physical cog like two kids on a seesaw. I use the food and the bite toy in this way since I believe predators project their p-cog into prey, and then they know where on the prey they can bite and enjoy leverage, and this is basically what's going on with herding behaviors. In this way, if the dog really wants the food or toy in my hand, it acts like a magnet pulling on the dog's physical c-o-g as if it is an iron ball in its body, and the dog feels as if it's in a state of emotional suspension, literally floating in sync with handler, depending that is on the degree to which it is hungry and feels in sync with the movements of the handler. So the prey value of the bite object never lessens, but the overall state of tension in the dog's body returns to neutral because of this suspension effect (exhibited by the dog light on its feet and willing to spring up) and this is what feels so rewarding for the dog, and I believe a wolf in the hunt, or a dog working the flock.