Shikoku..........

Came across one of these dogs the other day while out on a walk in the woods...

See here the breed....

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/s/shikoku.htm


It was off lead and came over to my dog, they stood face to face about 6 inches apart, the Shikoku then did a long low toned throaty growl, my dog just stayed calm and stood his ground....I wasn't too bothered as normally a long low toned throaty growl is a warning but a short sharp growl is often given before a bite or attack occurs and as my dog was remaining calm I felt this would not give the Shikoku anything further to react to.....which proved to be the case.....

The owner then mentioned that he is aggressive with other dogs sometimes, I mentioned that in my view what I just saw was not aggression.....but in fact communication.....as my dog and I remained calm then there was no problem...we chatted and I discovered that the local vet had recommended to her that she should have the dog destroyed as the vet had to pin him down to give him an injection and since that visit the vets now have to put a warden dog pole around him and a few staff wearing protective gloves have to pin him down to examine him....its got to the point where the vets are saying they won't treat him any more.....

Anyway we walked along and I was observing the dogs behaviour, to me just seemed a balanced dog, the owner mentioned that its hard to brush him as once he loses 'patience' he growls at her to let her know thats enough....wont let her touch his paws etc, won't let any strangers stroke him and especially men.....

I told her that in my view there is nothing wrong with the dog and its coz he views you as lower ranked and the fact you always stop or back away when he growls at you, he wins everytime....he may have a negative association with some men as it was a male vet who pinned him down and he prob used too much force and didn't do it properly....

When the dog growled at mine it was probably to tell my dog that this is his 'territory' and was letting him know that, he quite happily sniffed my dogs butt but would not allow my dog to sniff his, which tells me that this was part of the dominance thing and prob also he lacks social skills as is often kept away from other dogs due to his so called aggression....

The owner had the usual story of convinced it was the 'breed' being the problem, thats not a view I shared I told her....

Bearing in mind he was very dominant and territorial with my dog I asked her what did she think would happen if I went over to her dog and moved him on from where he was standing or peeing?....she said he would at least growl at me or worse......

I walked over to him with the mindset of being calm but that I 'owned' the space and everything around me, I came to him side on (which is less confrontational, than head on) he just calmly moved a few feet to the side and let me have the 'territory'....I turned and moved him on a few more times the same way....never touched him....he never growled once or showed any aggression whatsoever....

I always introduce myself to any dog I meet as a calm leader, so I was pretty confident there wasn't going to be a problem, (cheating really I suppose..lol)....I was then going to show her how to brush him but she didnt have a brush with her, having established he saw me as higher ranked than him I am confident I could have brushed him for as long as I wanted.....I did run my fingers along his back a few times with a claw like grip and he didnt do anything just stood there.....

She also mentioned she cant touch his paws, as this was my first meeting I didn't want to push things, but said that if we meet up a few times not only will I touch his paws I will clip them for you as no vet or groomer can do it....

The owner admitted to me that she bought the dog 7 years ago coz she fell in love with the LOOK of the breed, when she started having trouble she then researched the breed which just scared her even further....as they are part Akita.....

With someone that understands pack behaviour the dog was calm, relaxed, balanced.

This post brings up loads of points about so called aggression. But sounds like a lot is fear related.

The owner seems to have been convinced that her dog is dangerous and is doubtless nervous while out with it, the vet may well have contributed here with his own fear or dominance. Having a similar problem with some male vets, I have found a practice of all women vets who are fascinated and understanding of my dogs and the animals are accordingly far less stressed.

Of course choosing a breed based on looks alone is a disaster, but sadly all too common.

Hi wolfdog,

Welcome to the forum.....

What you experienced with the female vets is typically what I find if people have a mindset that is not fearful or aggressive with dogs and the dogs most of the time will pick up on that an act accordingly in a positive way as you found...ie the people in question dont necessarily even have to know anything about dog behaviour as such.....

My dog is typically very calm at the vets but when the macho male vet comes in the room all dominant it will elicit a low growl from my dog. When the nervous apologetic young male vet comes in he just ignores him. The ladies are neither nervous nor dominant which makes life easy for everybody.

Yet again, calmness is the key......

I can't find a good local vet so just take my dog when I have to, most round here want to charge lots of cash and think their doing you a favour, which does not give me confidence they have my dogs best interest at heart when they don't treat you as an equal.

I find my dog tells me about a person from his reaction, 100% effective lie detector....

I assume you broadly agree that the low long growl is the first stage of a warning, followed by a short sharp growl or snap of the air before a bite.....

If so, if more people knew this it could stop a lot of dog bites.

A low long growl is the a warning for you to keep your distance and should be respected as such. The next course of action for my boy would be a growl with a showing of teeth and then to leave the room!

Luckily he has all his language from his wolf heritage and as such I can read him like a book.

I see the vet as being nervous but thinking he can solve everything by being dominant- sadly something I see in some dog breeders and professionals etc.

As for being a lie detector: never wrong about people!

Thanks wolfdog,

Very interesting, at times I have used dominance on domestic dogs when I felt it necessary or at the time lack of knowledge, but I always made sure I was calm when doing it and never being 'macho' or trying to show who is boss, the objective being to calm the dog down.

I know this would never work with your dog as too close to the wolf and would be a very bad move on my part or what is left of me

I now try and keep any dominance to a bear minimum and try and control the environment instead.

I have seen a number of dogs just lift their lips to show the teeth but no growl, ie a silent warning, does yours do this?

Admin wrote:
I now try and keep any dominance to a bear minimum and try and control the environment instead.

I have seen a number of dogs just lift their lips to show the teeth but no growl, ie a silent warning, does yours do this?

I think the use of dominance is a very tricky question but controlling the environment better. I agree that calmness is the key.

Yes mine will often lift the lips but this is mostly a question of possession, when one has a bone and another comes too close etc. It is usually just a quick gesture. If anyone then moves too close there will be a warning growl as well. In a more serious situation my male will usually defuse any situation by not challenging and getting up and leaving (some see this as a sign of giving in- but it is not so as he will stand his ground if he feels it is important to him). My bitch on the other hand is extremely free with her vocalisation and teeth! The best way to dominate her is with a good cuddle and tummy rub

I agree the dominance thing is very hard to explain properly and get across, I have never had a negative effect from it from a dog I am aware of, by being calm while doing it I believe they knew I didnt mean them any harm and afterwards it is as though they have awoken from a deep calming sleep.

This maybe because of the theory that domestic dogs do not develop a brain any bigger than a young wolf and hence your breed is a different kettle of fish entirely....but we can still learn from them and use that knowledge with domestic dogs so we can control the environment more than the dog.

People like you hold a very important key in this regard with your vast experience in my view, just the tricky part now, getting people to listen.

I usually steer clear of the 'D' word as I think it is too misunderstood and abused! I use it with mine all the time but it is in a very subtle way. Often in the form of a 'cuddle' which is a physical restraint to them. I am very careful not to over do it. My dog (dog dog as opposed to wolf dog) is altogether different and I have to act completely different with him. He needs praise and attention more than any control by 'dominance': he is very people orientated, especially towards me. But too much praise and he becomes too excited and dominant/assertive with the other male which could result in a fight. There is a fine balance in keeping the two males apart.

As for the WD brain, they are different. They think and reason beyond anything that I have seen with ordinary dogs. As you know I followed Shauns pups closely (especially the Beta male) when they were growing up and the characters were very similar. Being the same age as my boy it was easy to compare their development.

Thanks wolfdog,

I was going to ask you how the relationship with your WD's and your great dane is, I assume if they have different roles in the pack then that helps, but I cant help wondering if your WD's see the great dane as inferior in some respects as WD's have a greater knowledge as you mention....

Is your bitch WD the alpha and the other WD the beta?....and what part does the great dane play?

The 'cuddle' you mention is it something like in this clip?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE-Nyt4Bmi8

I think they do see him as inferior. For a start he has a limited vocabulary. They do accept him as part of the family but the two wolfdogs stick together, they almost mimic each other and read each other thoughts.

Where the dog comes into his own is hunting. He has an incredible ability for air scenting and my bitch knows this. She is also a great hunter but when out in the woods she watches him intently for any sign that he has picked up something she has not. She is actually quite friendly to him but the boys are somewhat indifferent to each other following growing up together with typical male competition for dominance.

Alpha and betas. Hmm. I am not too comfortable by limiting discussion of Alphas and Betas to a linear hierarchy. In the first great study of wolves in the wild, 'The wolves of Mount McKinley' Adolph Murie described wolves as living in family groups. Shaun Ellis used to refer to the Alpha as a decision maker, the Beta as an enforcer and the Omega as a diffuser, its a better way of looking at it but the roles can be quite flexible.

As for mine: my bitch likes to be in charge, thats for sure. However he is a quiet lazy one and will often get his own back quietly and subtly. She is an obvious choice but actually He has the better judgement. The dog just likes to think he is of a high rank!

Sorry but I couldn't watch the video: they take about 3 hrs to load on my dial up

I forgot that sorry, it was polar bears 'cuddling' dogs.....quite amazing...

Just off for dinner so will 'digest' your last post later....

wolfdog wrote:I think they do see him as inferior. For a start he has a limited vocabulary. They do accept him as part of the family but the two wolfdogs stick together, they almost mimic each other and read each other thoughts.

Where the dog comes into his own is hunting. He has an incredible ability for air scenting and my bitch knows this. She is also a great hunter but when out in the woods she watches him intently for any sign that he has picked up something she has not. She is actually quite friendly to him but the boys are somewhat indifferent to each other following growing up together with typical male competition for dominance.

Alpha and betas. Hmm. I am not too comfortable by limiting discussion of Alphas and Betas to a linear hierarchy. In the first great study of wolves in the wild, 'The wolves of Mount McKinley' Adolph Murie described wolves as living in family groups. Shaun Ellis used to refer to the Alpha as a decision maker, the Beta as an enforcer and the Omega as a diffuser, its a better way of looking at it but the roles can be quite flexible.

As for mine: my bitch likes to be in charge, thats for sure. However he is a quiet lazy one and will often get his own back quietly and subtly. She is an obvious choice but actually He has the better judgement. The dog just likes to think he is of a high rank!

I think Liz will tell you that her 3 change roles in certain situations, there were reports after the katrina hurricanes that the dogs left behind formed their own packs....they found a pack of dogs mainly power breeds pitbulls, rottys being lead by a beagle!....the theory being that they made the beagle the leader as he had the best sense of smell and direction to lead them from danger, I'm sure once out of danger the leadership would have changed, also another pack was being lead through lots of water by a Labrador as they have webbed feet and were bred to retrieve fishing nets it makes sense he was best to lead in this situation.....so as you say these may not be alphas as such but did lead in these given circumstances....

I find it all very interesting....thanks again for your feedback.....you always make me think.....

Jamesp wrote:

The 'cuddle' you mention is it something like in this clip?...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE-Nyt4Bmi8

Got to watch the video today. Very interesting but I think those poor dogs were not to happy to be 'cuddled'. A cuddle like that from a Polar Bear has to be considered dominant, if not rather scary!!!